We spoke with U Win Tin before, shortly after his release in November 2009. It was quite a challenge to get hold of him by telephone at the time: I was given several telephone numbers and was told to dial different numbers. Not much has changed in Burma, it seems…

This time, it turned out that his home phone numbers were closed down by the authorities. A way to shut up an old man who cannot stop being active for the freedom of his people?

Saya Gyi, ne kaun de la? How are you doing and how is your health?

‘Oh, not so bad..I have to stay at home most of the time though.’

Did you know when you were in prison that many people and organisations were active for you?

‘Yes I know, of course, I got some information about the situation outside at the time.’

Last time we spoke, you told me about your time in The Netherlands. Do you still have memories of that time?

‘Yes, I spoke about that. I lived there in the 1950s, it’s a long time ago, you see. I got memories, but anyhow, it’s a long time ago and my memories are fading and although I got such memories from time to time, they are not very fresh and very clear..
I do not speak the Dutch language. At the time, I did of course. I wrote some articles and newsletters in Dutch. But nowadays, I almost forgot everything. It’s a long time ago and I have no chance to use the language here, so I forgot almost everything.’

Can you tell me something about things that happened in your life when you were 13 years of age?

‘Well you see, I can not remember well, but at that age, some people are asked to be initiated as a novice in the Buddhist order here. So at the time, I was young and it was wartime so there was a lot of bombing, so of course I remember that. I found a refuge in the order, not in a very common way but I found a refuge in the order because the monastery was out of town and it was quite free from the bombing and all that stuff.
These are the things I remember. I stayed in the order for about a month – not a real month, but a full month like we call it a ‘waa‘, which is a time specification (Buddhist month of Lent, BV). So I found it and it was quite a new life. I had been studying at a normal school, but when I was initiated in the order I had to learn some Buddhist literature and teaching. All these things I was learning were new to me. So I found it like a new life, a new way of life.

‘I lived with my family, my grandmother and my father and others at the time. I was born in a town about 100 miles away from Rangoon. I was brought up in Rangoon and went to school there when I was young. Then when the war broke out, I had to go to another village, which was a new place for me. There I could go to school again, but the schools there were not as liberal at the time. So I came down from time to time. That is one thing. Another thing is that there was a lot going on at that time. Even in a small town. Our small town was on the railroad and on the motorway. So there was a lot of coming and going of trains and cars. And also the Japanese were going up and down the country. There were a lot of bombings. So we had to move from time to time, even from the small towns to the small villages. And we had to live here and there.

There were English and American airplanes checking out the pagodas. Because pagodas are visible from the sky. And our monasteries are situated close to the pagodas. So we found and moved to a new place, and this was a refuge. So that’s all when I was 13 years old..’

What is your opinion on the recent prisoner release? Some governments may think this signals real change, what do you think about this?

‘No, I do not think so. Because there are still at least 1,000 political prisoners left in jail. The release included all kinds of prisoners, also criminals and not only the political prisoners. They released about 200 political prisoners. For us, this is not enough. So we are not satisfied about this release indeed. But we are still hoping for another release. Up until now, there really has been no release at all..’

On 18th November, the NLD will meet to discuss a possible participation in future elections.

‘We will not be speaking about the future, but on the 18 November there is a meeting of the Central Executive members of the NLD. They are going to decide whether the party is going to re-register or whether the party is going to go into election.’

What is to be done for the NLD to be able to participate in an election?

‘Well, that depends on that meeting on 18 November. If that meeting decides that first, the party is going to be registered, that is one. And another thing is, that the party is going to go for the voting and the election. Then you can say that the party is on the road for election and vote to Parliament.’

Do you see a difference between U Thein Sein’s and U Than Shwe’s government?

‘Well, of course, you see, but I can not really see, I am not in a position to do it. To say such kind of a thing, because they are the same group. They are the same clique. Two times he is the chief, chief of the military group at the time and now chief of the government. U Thein Sein is one of the members of the group.  U Thein Sein was the Prime Minister of the government headed by Than Shwe, so really I cannot say that there is a very different attitude among them. They are always the same group, so I can not say exactly.. But anyhow, the style of leading the political situation outside the government grounds to pack for U Thein Sein projecting a different way.’

Recently president Thein Sein announced that he welcomes back exiles from different organisations who have left Burma. Do you think that Burma is safe enough for Burmese exiles to return home?

‘Well, I think so but many of the older people who went into exile are not happy there. In a foreign country some of them are not happy because not all of them are educated persons or well-trained persons. Some of them can not find good work, so they found it difficult in that foreign land. Some of them would be happy to come back. That is one group. Another group is the educated persons who cannot find work or the work they would like to have. What they did in the foreign country is not actually the kind of work they would like to do in their own country. So these people would like to come back, too. But now the invitation is from the mouth of U Thein Sein and not in the form of a formal way. There is no notification or no law. There needs to be some sort of guarantee, so that they can come back, easily and safely.’

Recently the government has set up the national human rights commission which it says will safeguard the fundamental rights of its citizens. What do you think about this commission?

‘This commission is not thought of very well here. They founded such a thing a long time ago. For instance during Than Shwe’s government, there were some human rights commissions, all run by the Home Minister. But at the time, all the violations of human rights were also done by the Home Ministry. Then the government formed a human rights commission headed by the Home Minister. It’s a very funny thing and all the people are not taking it seriously, such a commission. It’s really no news at all. This commission again, there are some very famous ambassadors and government officers on it. But most of these people at some time, served in Than Shwe’s government by acting as ambassadors, they went to foreign countries and explained about Than Shwe’s government. They portrayed the government.’

U Thant Myint (historian, former UN official) said in his recent article “In Myanmar, seize the moment” in the New York Times of 4 October, the following:
“Myanmar,…., is at its most important political watershed since the establishment of army rule in 1962. … President Obama should publicly support the changes taking place, and back up those words with actions to end the country’s isolation, before hard-liners who oppose reform are able to push back.”
Do you agree and who do you think does he refer to when he says “hardliners who oppose reform”?

‘Oh no, I think such kind of statements are not really true. Because if you look at the government, you can find that such kind of statements are not true at all. If you go to the countryside, for instance, people are still facing many violations of their human rights. Also on the ethnic side, there are violations and there is fighting still. So, such statements are not really true. The only change there is to be seen, is at the highest levels, like the political level. So I do not think this is true at all. As a politician I do not support such kind of a statement. Obama should not come and behave as a hero and save the country and support the military.He should not do it.’

And whom does he mean when he speaks about hardliners?

‘I don’t know who Thant Myint means by hardliners.. We wondered too, you see, haha. We cannot say exactly what he means of course. But there are some hardliners too. They got a reason and tradition on their part. For the hardliners, they can point out that there are many political prisoners. Up till now they have released about 200 and there are some 1,000 political prisoners left inside the jails all over the country. Not only in the southern tip of Burma, but also in the far north, like in Kachin State. There are many. Everywhere. The farmers are using there livelihood and so on, and if you go to the countryside, and even in Rangoon, and go to the poorer areas, you find poor people who are facing many violations everywhere. There is no change at all. Not at all. The only changes are in the upper echelons, like in the Parliament and in the government. And of course, they also met with Daw Aung San Suu Kyi a few times.

You wrote a book about your time in prison. I think many foreigners would like to read this book. Is there any chance a translation in English will come?

‘I am sorry to say, I do not think there is a chance, because I think I cannot find people who would like to help translating it. I cannot do it myself, because my English is not very good and my writing in Burmese is rather slow..And besides, …how do I put it… the writing in Burmese style is rather complicated, it is not easy to translate into English. So I think Burmese people outside of the country can not do it, because most of these people are not very well versed in the Burmese and English language, so it will not be easy I think.’

Thank you very much, Saya Gyi. Saga pyaw lo kaun ba deh, I enjoyed talking to you and wish you all the best.

Ko Zayar Thaw was born Kyaw Kyaw on 26 March 1981. He is a well-known  hip-hopper in Burma and together with Yan Yan Chan founded hip-hop band Acid, which released Burma’s first hip-hop album Beginning in 2000. After the 2007 Saffron Revolution, Zayar Thaw and others founded Generation Wave.

Generation Wave is a youth movement which uses stickers, pamphlets, music and grafitti to peacefully oppose the military regime in Burma. In 2008, Zayar Thaw was arrested and sentenced to six years in prison, for ‘forming an illegal organisation’ and  the ‘illegal possession of foreign currency’ (upon his arrest, he had a few US dollars in his pockets…). He was released in May 2011, as part of an amnesty for prisoners by the regime. Many members of his organisation Generation Wave are currently still in prison. We had contact with Zayar Thaw shortly after his release.

Can you tell us something about your arrest and what happened afterwards?

“While we, six friends, were discussing and having meals in Gold Feather Restaurant at Sayarsan Road in Rangoon, some Military Security Agents from Unit (1), headed by Capt X,  suddenly came in and arrested us without any warrant. They took us to the nearest Police Station at Bahan Township. Then in the evening, I was blindfolded and taken to an unknown place for interrogation. After the violent and bloody interrogation that lasted a few days, I was taken to Insein Prison via the Bahan Township Police Station. I received my verdict at Insein Prison and was then transferred to Kawthaung Prison.”

How were you treated, were you tortured?

“At the interrogation centre, they –  I don’t know who they are and what they are –  tortured me and beat me while asking many unreasonable questions and so, there was some bloodshed. However, I do not want to go into detail on that, because, I don’t want to bear any grudges against those who brutally treated me.”

How did you survive your time in prison, what kept you going?

“The way of life and staying in Burmese prisons is very hard, very difficult and, I would like to say, very bad. Prison has its own rules and regulations that every prisoner must follow. Whatever hardship we faced in prison, we the prisoners of conscience including me, tried to go through these days by firmly holding on to our own beliefs and convictions and also focus on our destination. We strongly believe that our destination will be attained one day. That belief always motivates us to overcome these hard days in prison.”

Did you know that human rights organisations campaigned for your release? And is there anything you want to say to these people who were active for you?

“During my family visits, we were allowed to talk about our family affairs only. I did not know about these campaigns for my release. When I was released, I got some information about that from my colleagues. I deeply appreciate their kindness upon me. May I request you to convey my appreciation to these people.
I also want to show my gratitude in person, and to have contact with them in the future. Please let me know their addresses. Although I have been released, there are many artists and musicians still behind bars. I would like to do something for their release in collaboration with your help as well as with our friends abroad.”

How do you see the future of Burma?

“Our country has been ruled by a political dictatorship for more than half a century up until now. We, people of various nationalities, desire to make a CHANGE. I myself have tried and have been trying to create awareness of our people to visualize their existing unhealthy socioeconomic conditions and low standard of living, so as to be activated and willing to achieve the betterment of their lifestyle. I am determined to march along with my beloved people including other nationalities to reach our desired goals with our faithful beliefs and convictions, and so I am sure that we will definitely reach our goal in the near future.”

How do you see your own future?

“As a noble citizen of Burmese nationality, my future is the people’s future as well as their desire. We are trying to construct a new democratic country with our faithful belief and conviction, using our own hands collaboratively to achieve a better and brighter future for our new generation.”

Did you hear anything about the elections last year? And about Daw Aung San Suu Kyi’s release?

“In prison, we can only read government-run newspapers and censor-passed journals and
magazines. We can only have limited information through these limited media. So I heard about last year’s  elections only as news facts, not in detail.”

“I read about the release of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi on her due course from house arrest in the available newspapers and journals.”

What can human rights organisations or people outside Burma do to improve the human rights situation in Burma?

“First of all, I want organisations like human rights ngo’s to give certain pressure upon the existing governing authorities, for the release of all political prisoners in Burma, with the basic human rights background. Because I accept this as the basic and most urgent need of our country. Secondly, please try to expose the current events in violation of human rights, strategically done by our governing bodies upon the Burmese Nationalities, to international governments and the people inside our country as well. And last, but not the least, I am afraid to say that when the International Bodies (Amnesty International, ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross), ILO International Labour Organisation), Freedom House etc.) and Institutions handle the Burmese Affairs, they usually recommend as “being criticized, being blamed on that, being proposed, and being warned”. We, the activists in the country, want you all to take more specific decisions and actions like “decided to do something on that purpose, with some regulations and bye-laws, and act effectively.”

How do you view politics as a singer / artist?

“A person whoever or whatever he may be, if he lives in a country and/or dwells in that country, he would be a citizen of that country and has the right to see, to feel and to expose his beliefs to the others, especially when he sees and feels the unlawful things in front of him.”

Do you want to be a politician or a singer or both?

“I decided to create some music as my hobby for my audience and also to keep on observing my country’s affairs on politics as well as socioeconomic aspects for the betterment of my people.”

What influenced you to get involved in politics?

“I exposed the people’s voices and their noises, which built up cumulatively in our hearts forming to be our utmost desires. So I exposed these feelings on behalf of them.”

What do you think about the other artists who are reluctant to get involved in politics?

“I accept that artists are professionals. If somebody bans or forbids or controls him in the creation of his arts, his and his family’s life have been broken into pieces and cannot survive. The government uses this strategy, to control the artists to keep them away from politics. That is why we, as active artists, fight for the oppression of human’s birth right for everybody including the artists.”

Do you have a message for the people outside your country?

“I would like to say thank you all for your interest and long lasting support for our activities to get democracy. Our way to fight for it is not over yet. May I request you to continue your support and allow me to say that we are looking forward to get more specific and effective support for our way to democracy.”

What can we as normal people do for the people in Burma?

“I like to say to the people from abroad that we are fighting for the attainment of basic human birth rights which you all already have.  i.e. we want to survive at a normal standard of lifestyle for every citizen. We also want to live peacefully and safely while we are trying to manage the promotion of our own lifestyles and standard of living, like you. But we are still fighting to attain that sort of life.
Thus, you have to keep in mind that although you all are staying peacefully and safely in your normal family lives, there is a country, in a certain part of the world, where the people are still fighting for the chance to live simply like you. Please convey this message to others who are not well acquainted to our existing sufferings. Thank you very much.”

Ashin Sopaka (Thawpaka) is 34 years old when we talk in Amsterdam, March 2011.

He is originally from Yinmabin Township, Tha Pye Aye Village, in Sagaing Division. Ashin Sopaka is one of the founders of The Best Friend and has fought for freedom and democracy in his native country Burma, for many years.He begins to speak about his background.

“I was born in Yinmabin Township in Tha Pye Aye village. I went to school there for two years. When I was 10 years old, my family moved to Mandalay. We did not live in the city itself, but outside of Mandalay, about one hour away, in a village. My father died when I was only 2,5 years old. I never knew him. Never knew who he was, what kind of person he was. It was my mother who gave me both father’s and mother’s love. I had no idea about real father’s love. My mother married again and I got another sister and brother. My stepfather passed away too and my mother is alone now.”

“In 1988 all schools were closed down by the government and the students moved and became active. Because I could not go to school anymore, my mother and uncle decided I was to pursue my education at a monastery. I went, but my uncle forced me to come back home after one year. He needed me to work in the flower garden. I was working, but thinking: ‘this is not my choice, doing this. I cannot learn anything from this particular work.’ I wanted to learn for my life.”

“I asked my mother if I could go back to the monastery to continue my education. I wanted to learn more. She agreed and I became a novice again at the age of 13. When I was 17, I went to Rangoon. I had no teacher so I went to Bago to study. There were about 125 monks studying there. During summertime, we had to go out to collect uncooked rice. We used to collect a lot. But our abbot did not cook it. We were sent out twice a day to collect this rice, but the rice was sold by our abbot. I did not like this and wrote a letter about it. They were not pleased with this and I was sent away from the monastery. I was very unhappy and disappointed and wanted to disrobe and step out of monkhood. At that point, I was unhappy with Buddhism.”

“I decided I wanted to learn to speak English. This would be a very good preparation for my layman-life, because I wanted to become a teacher. Normally, it is not allowed for a monk to learn English. I started to read the Dhamma, the Buddha’s teaching, in English and learned more and more. I found out more and more valuable teachings. Slowly, I changed my mind about being a monk. And I decided to remain a monk, because it gave me a lot more options to help others and myself.”

How did Ashin Sopaka get politically involved?

“In 1997, I took part in the entrance exam of the State Pariyatta Sasana University, a university for monks. That’s where I met U King (King Zero, Ashin Issariya). At university, I also met other monks, who had gone abroad. I was very impressed by their stories.”

“But at the time, monks were also repressed and driven away from university. We wanted to change this and formed a group: The Best Friend Group of Literature. We opened up libraries and held discussions. In 1999, The Best Friend was founded. We deliberately chose this neutral name, without any influence or political affiliation or religious connotation. Our aim was to change the system and fight against injustice.”

What was The Best Friend like in the beginning?

“The Best Friend Group of Literature started with 10 monks. In 2000, U King, somebody else and myself went out to try and meet Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. She would be coming to a place near us. We wanted to talk to her. But we were followed by the secret service. They forced us to sign an agreement. We decided to leave university. And so we did.”

“U King left university immediately. I had to stay to sort some things out. Like organising my books. But they did not let me: I was dragged out of university by other monks. After that, I went from monastery to monastery. I managed to leave my country in 2001. I left because I wanted to find activities and new contacts abroad. I had a passport, so I could take a plane to Bangkok. I then went and visited Laos and returned to Burma again.”

“In 2002, we restarted The Best Friend in Mandalay. U Kovida and nearly 20 other monks joined us. I left Burma again in 2003 and visited Singapore and Germany. I was invited to Germany by friends. I went on a student visa.”

In the same year, the so-called Depayin massacre took place.

“I had no option but to speak out. I openly spoke about our regime and demonstrated in front of the Burmese embassy in Berlin. It was then, that I applied for political asylum in Germany. I received this in the same year, 2003. I had to study the German language.”

Ashin Sopaka lived in Germany for years. What did he do there?

“In 2005 the KBC – Koelner Buddhist Center – was founded. I founded it with the help and support of German friends. With help of German friends, we also managed to build a new library in Mandalay. I sent money inside (to Burma), to help U Kovida and U King.”

But this was not enough. Ashin Sopaka wanted to do more.

“I had to raise awareness. Of the situation in my country. The atrocities my people were facing. The human rights abuses that were taking place. In 2006, I organised a Peace Walk: we walked from Cologne (Koeln) to Berlin. The walk started on 3 August 2006. Our aim was to show the world my country’s long struggle for freedom. And to create awareness of the situation inside Burma, because not many people know what is happening there at all..”

“I wanted more Peace Walks, so I contacted King Zero. And we arranged to meet in Mae Sot, Thailand. In secret. As he was still in Burma at the time. He travelled to the border to meet me there. They came, and we planned for our movement. I dreamed about Peace Walks happening in my country, Burma. I started a Peace Walk in Thailand: we walked from Bangkok to the Thai-Burmese border town of Mae Sot. We started this walk on 30 January 2007. Our aim was to get media attention: we wanted to send a message through the media to the people. It worked and monks inside the country (Burma) started to participate and spread the message.”

“In 2007, it was my duty to spread our message via the media. Other monks spread the message inside, on the ground. It was the message of the Metta Sutta, of universal loving kindness.”

Did this all lead to the 2007 Saffron Revolution?

“In September 2007, years of preparation and coincidence came together. It all started with the uprising in the town of Pakokku. Students started to march because petrol prices had risen enormously and they could not travel anymore. This was a strong message to the people. In Pakokku, monks started to walk as well. They were violently cracked down by the regime.”

“King Zero and Ashin Gambira issued a statement to the media. They demanded an official apology from the regime for the violence against the Pakokku monks, and a reduction in oil prices. They also urged the regime to release all political prisoners and to start a dialogue with all parties involved. They received no reply from the government. So, in September 2007, the Burmese monks started their marches throughout Burma.”

People sometimes state that the 2007 demonstrations just happened and lacked planning.

“The 2007 marches were planned. The organisers had been planning this for years. Planning and preparation is important and very powerful for our movement.”

Does Ashin Sopaka think violence is ever necessary to bring chance to Burma?

“I love non-violence, very much. Burma’s situation is very difficult, though. This regime has no mercy. That is the problem. Look at Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King. They advocated non-violence. And their governments had a human spirit. Ours does not. This is a big challenge. We still believe non-violence is the way to bring people together. Violence brings suffering and it will cost human lives. Freedom is important, but human lives are more important. We strongly support Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. We stand on the people’s side and do not want our people to get hurt. When it comes to my personal belief: I believe in non-violence. The people believe in it, we need to protect the people and our country needs an army for that. We need a force to protect the non-violent believers. The United Nations could do this, but they are always too late. We need to make a force to protect the people. We need protection.”

Does Ashin Sopaka have a message for the people?

“Generally, I want people to see that all people, in and out of Burma are all human beings. We are all human. The world becomes smaller: whatever happens somewhere, has an effect somewhere else. We have a duty to take care of each other, just like brothers and sisters. I would like to quote from the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: all are equal. We should see each other as equal, as brothers. As sisters. The world will be peaceful if we can practise this.”

“There is a lot of discrimination still going on. Even in rich and developed countries. In everyday human society. International governments say: what happens in Burma is Burma’s internal affairs. China and India say this. They use this to protect themselves. But what happens inside Burma is not only internal affairs. It is also international. An example: a husband kills his wife. Neighbours in the area see and hear it. So it’s not only the man’s internal affair. It has become their affair, too. It is a human affair. And as good neighbours you have an obligation to report something like this. The same goes for a country who kills its citizens: neighbouring countries need to take action.”

How does Ashin Sopaka view the future?

“All I can say is, we have a plan. I cannot speak about this very openly. Preparing is important. If another occasion arises, we will strike. A lot of people simply cannot stand it anymore.”

And what about his personal view of the future?

“I want people to enjoy freedom in a free country. I see them enjoying this in my dreams. I see my people dancing. Playing Burmese traditional drums. Celebrating freedom.”

Ko Moe Kyaw Aung is 47 years old. He originally comes from Rangoon. He was active in the armed struggle for years.

“I was part of the ABSDF (the former ABSFU) and the Democratic Union Solidarity (DaNyaTa). Both were active in the Thai-Burma border areas, fighting for democracy. In 1988 I left for the border area to fight with the student armed group. I went back inside in 1991 and got arrested. They arrested me for contact with exile groups. I had contacted Ko Soe Myint, who was in India at the time. They interrogated me and released me after three days. In December of that year, they arrested me again. For meeting with various groups. We formed SATAPALA, an armed group, to fight for the people. In January 1993, I was arrested again and questioned for one month. Five years later, I was taken and sentenced to a total of fifteen years in prison. I served five of these, in Insein and Thyarwaddy.”

Because you were involved in the armed struggle, do you think violence is the way to bring change in Burma?

“At the time, I thought so, yes. Later, I learned that it is not impossible to bring change without violence. Since the end of 1988, it is not impossible to get change without violence.”

How can change come then?

“There are two conditions: the first is, there must be an uprising. The second is, there must be more pressure from the international community on the junta. I believe these two conditions together can bring change.”

What can normal people do to support people in Burma?

“We need more pressure from the outside. Western governments must put more pressure on the regime. At the same time, ASEAN is supporting this regime. Change can only come when all the governments support change at the same time. Activists on the inside need support too.”

What does Ko Moe Kyaw Aung think about the elections?

“They are not that important. The biggest problem is the 2008 Constitution. 25% of the seats in Parliament will be taken by the military. The USDP has many members from the military. After the elections, 50% will be taken by the junta. The Parliament will still be ruled by the military. According to this basic constitution, the military is allowed to take power at any time. This constitution and the sham elections will lead to the same regime before and after these elections. The so-called multi party election only serves to legitimise the regime internationally.”

What is his situation at the moment?

“I am living here in NuPho camp with my wife, who has been here since 2008. We are waiting for our MPO registration and want to apply to be resettled in a third country. The Thai authorities and recently the Thai Foreign Minister have said they want to deport us back to Burma. Because of this, many people here are now afraid and depressed. The Thai said that all people who have been here longer than ten years, will get a citizin card. All children born after 2008 as well.”

What will happen when the Thai authorities deport Burmese refugees back?

“I can speak only about my personal situation. I was released from prison early, after serving five years of my fifteen year prison sentence. They let me go because I signed their agreement: if I ever got involved in politics again, I would have to serve the remaining ten years of my sentence. I did get involved in politics again, so if they would send me back to Burma, I would be sent back to prison immediately.”

“When they released me, the MI told me that if I would ever be arrested again, not for political activities but for criminal activities, the punishment would be even heavier. Because criminals are not watched by international organisations. This happened to a colleague of mine. Htet Naing Oo, who was killed by the USDP. Police caught him in 2006, called him a thief and beat him up badly. Htet Naing Oo got arrested. He was sentenced as a criminal instead of a human rights defender. I was too. If people like him are deported back to Burma, they will get arrested by the Burmese authorities.”

What is Ko Moe Kyaw Aung’s message to the people?

“Does my opinion count? Is it not better when organisations like Amnesty International say something about Burma? I do not have a long message. Only people who have been living under dictators know how cruel they are. People who do not know, may not even believe our stories of cruelty. They may think it’s a myth. I want the international community to know that Burma’s dictators are much worse than some Western ones. No words can describe how bad and cruel they are. I want to call on people to help us with democracy and human rights. Not only Burma, but every country. All democratic countries should help.”

We end up speaking about the fine line between armed struggle and terrorism.

“Terrorism is killing innocent people intentionally on purpose. Like the junta did with the monks in 2007. Any person or government who does this, is a terrorist. The Burmese junta uses soldiers to suppress and kill the people. Why do they regard this junta as a government?? When a government uses soldiers to kill innocent people, the international community does not regard this government a terrorist. But when an individual kills another, he is a terrorist. Why? Even Nelson Mandela is sometimes by some regarded as a terrorist. Is this because he killed white people, or because he fought for his own freedom?”

Ko Kyaw Zaw, aka Aung Kyaw Hein, is 37 years old and comes from Rangoon. We meet in NuPho refugee camp.

“I was imprisoned for my activities in the student movement. In May 1989, I was arrested for the first time. I was 16 years old. I was too young for prison, did not have any experience. I was beaten. Later, they gave me a warning not to get involved in politics again. I was released and sent back to my parents.”

“I got involved in the ABFSU, the All Burma Federation of Student Unions. I was arrested for the second time in October 1990. They kept me detained for one month. They arrested my on the street. I had expected them to come to my house and take me, so I had been avoiding my house.”

“On 16 April 1991, they arrested me for the third time. This time, I was sentenced to three years in prison. And was moved to Insein prison. During this third time arrest, they tortured me a lot. But this was not different from anybody else. It’s normal to be tortured. I lost consciousness because of all the beatings, and they threw water at me to wake me up.
So that they could continue their beatings. I did not get any food or water. I had to ask permission to go to the toilet. When I was given this permission, I used the water in the toilet to wash and drink.”

“The worst thing was, when MI (Military Intelligence) took my parents to come and look at me. They said: ‘look, you did not know how to train your child, so we did it for you.’ They showed me, full of injuries and bruises from the beatings. I suffered a lot from this, also mentally. They had beaten me up freshly, just before my parents came. So I had a lot of blood on my face.”

“They also hung me up, by my arms. When my parents came, I expected to go back home with them, but they kept me there.”

Ko Kyaw Zaw was transferred to another interrogation centre, where the MI interrogated him for ten days.

“In total I spent eleven months in the detention centre. After that, they took me to Insein prison. After my release, I contacted ABFSU again and worked for them again. In 1998, on 13 January, they arrested me again. I was kept in a detention centre for one month. Afterwards, for another two months. This was the hardest time. They beat me in the hot sun. My face was covered with a cloth and my hands were handcuffed behind my back. I had no food or water for a whole week.”

“Sometimes I was too weak for questioning and it was very difficult to concentrate on their questions and not to give the wrong answers. They sentenced my to fourteen years in jail. Together with Ko Nay Oo, Hnin Pan Ein’s husband. We were sent to Kalay prison. My father, who is poet U Kyi Tin Oo, also spent time in jail. He was arrested for political activities and spent ten years in prison.
Both Ko Nay Oo and I were released after eight years. One year before my release, my father was released from prison. With help of the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross), my father visited me. When my father went back home, he died. I heard this when I was still in prison. On 6 July 2005, I got out.”

In January 2006, Ko Kyaw Zaw fled to Thailand and arrived in Mae Sot. He received some money from the AAPPB (Assistance Association for Political Prisoners Burma) and lived with them for a while.

How does Ko Kyaw Zaw cope with everything he has been through?

“You cannot see obvious injuries on me, but I have many invisible injuries. Before I left Burma, Min Ko Naing and others helped me to go and see a doctor. Here in the refugee camp, I see a doctor too. This is also for prison ailments like stomach problems. There is however, no help for psychological problems here in the camp. Only physical. I had some help for psychological problems in Burma, before I left, and I got some medicine. Right now, I live alone here in the camp. I am single. My mother is still alive. She is inside. I have no contact with my brothers or sisters.”

How did Ko Kyaw Zaw survive his time in prison?

“I always believed I was struggling for justice. What I did was right. I have no regrets. I am not afraid. Naturally, I was very weak physically. And I suffered after a long time in prison. The prison authorities did not tell me my father had passed away. They feared I would get more defiant if they would tell me. My mother told my during a visit. But what could I do? I had expected it to happen. My father was not the only one. Many political prisoners died. I did not suffer more because this happened.”

“I’m telling you this story, not because I am complaining, but because I want my story to be shown to people in the outside world.”

Ko Kyi Toe is 40 years old and comes from Rangoon. We meet in NuPho refugee camp around the 2010 elections.

“On 16 March 1988, my sister started marching with students, Tada Pyu (White Bridge). They marched peacefully. But the military regime blocked the streets. The students said: we are peaceful, we can avoid the military. But they were beaten and tortured. Their clothes were taken off and they were drowned in the river. My sister was not beaten, she managed to escape and told me about it all. I have been interested in politics since that day.”

Ko Kyi Toe tells more about the student protests in 1988.

“It was June 1988 and the students started marching into Rangoon. At night, there were more arrests. In my streets, the stray dogs would bark, so we would be warned and usually saw the troops coming. I ran away when they came. I went to my brother’s house, which was close to Rangoon. I went back home in August. I saw many students killed. Many bodies were in the streets. Everybody who got caught, was injured or killed by the regime. Everybody was put on trucks. I heard voices from those trucks, screaming: we are still alive! They just threw everybody on the trucks with the dead bodies. Many people were buried alive. People who were injured, but alive, were all buried with the dead people.”

“They first put them all in mass graves. Later, they buried them up again: they dug them up with machines and burned all the bodies. Thousands.”

“Every five minutes trucks came with people and bodies. First they drove to the military camp and then to the cemetary. I lived close to the military office and saw everything. From that day, I believed and saw the military regime just causes problems. Only when we kick them out, will we have peace.”

What happened to you at that time?

“On 19 July 1989, it was Martyr’s Day and we remembered Bogyoke Aung San’s assassination. I was a member of Ahkatha, the basic student union. We marched to the Shwedagon Pagoda. We were attacked by the military. We dispersed. There were 19 students left. They marched on but were caught. Sixteen boys and three girls were arrested, including me. I was sent to an interrogation centre and from there to Insein prison.”

“Inside Insein prison there are ‘private prisons’: rooms used as interrogation rooms. I was interrogated there on 20 July. I did not suffer like some others. We were not tortured because it was an emergency situation. They simply did not have enough time for that. We had to stand in the so-called motorcycle position. If we moved, the beat us. But we did not get any electrical shocks or anything like that.”

“On 29 July, sixteen of the nineteen were sentenced. Three boys, they were about 13 years old, were released. Three girls and thirteen boys were sentenced to five and seven years in prison. I got five years. In Insein prison.”

Can you tell us more about your time in prison?

“In January 1990, I was transferred to Thayarwaddy prison in Bago. We were forced to work in a forced labour camp. We refused and were beaten up. I got unconscious. They took me to a room where there were many leprosy patients. Ninety people were beaten. We had to crawl on all fours, in lines of five. We were later ordered to paint the prison, in summer. We refused again. We did not want to paint, because we were no criminals. We did not want to decorate the place were innocent people are being kept. So they beat us again.”

“A colleague was punched by a prison officer. Others stood up for him and demonstrated at this treatment. The prison officials took ten of us and beat them up.

We had to stand in this position (Ko Kyi Toe shows us): on our heels, bent in the knees, with the hands in your neck, head down. Then they beat us.

I pretended I was unconscious. But they just continued and kicked my head and face. All my body parts were broken. When I was released, I showed my injuries and my back to my mother. She had a heart attack when she saw my injuries…”

“Some prisoners were beaten until they died. This is a problem for the authorities, so they had to be careful.”

Ko Kyi Toe stands up and demonstrates walking in leg chains: the chains are around the ankles and keep the feet about 30 centimetres apart. He wiggles in front of us.

“I wore legchains, so could not walk properly. I was very weak and had to be supported by prison officers when I was moved. Upon reaching my cell, they kicked me to the ground.”

“At night, the wind came in my cell. It was very cold. I could not sleep because I was afraid of the cold and paralyses. I slept on the ground, without a mattrass. There was no toilet. I could not move because of my injuries. Later, as a form of exercise, I did ‘sit-ups’ with my legs. When I had gone to the toilet, I would check my faeces. Often, there was blood in my stools. Then I would be depressed: I knew I was bleeding again inside and I was unhealthy again.”

“There were maggots which came out of the toilets. They bit me. Every morning, I would get one cup of water. This was for washing, brushing teeth, etc. In total I got five cups of water a day. But I found a dead rotting rat in this drinking water. There was no toilet paper and we would tear little bits of our longyis to use for cleaning ourselves. We could not wash these, they were dirty, but we did not have enough water to do this.”

“Everybody had scabies. There were too many people, it was dirty and the circumstances were unhygienic. There were more scabies in Insein than in Thayarwaddy.
When they wanted to medically treat us, they just injected us with a needle. Many people had HIV; the needles were not clean and they used the same on many people.”

Ko Kyi Toe was released on 10 October 1992. In 1996 he moved away and hid in the countryside. During the 2007 uprisings, he distributed statements with Min Ko Naing and had to escape the country. He left Burma in February. On 15 January 2008, Ko Kyi Toe arrived in NuPho refugee camp in Thailand.

“I am here with my wife and my child. They came a few months after I escaped. I want to resettle with my family in a third country now.”

Do you have a message for the people?

“I want to ask the international community not to accept this military regime in Burma. Their elections are no solution. As long as this regime is there, there will be no peace. The civil war will not stop.”

Ko Soe Myint Aung is 39 years old and originally comes from Rangoon. We meet in NuPho refugee camp along the Thai-Burma border.

“During the ‘88 student protests, I was 16 years old and I did not understand much about politics. Every morning, I would buy beans from a street vendor. Then there was the sudden inflation with the monetary denominations cancelled by the junta and many people were ruined from one day to the next. My street vendor was upset and I saw her cry. I felt sympathy for her and from that moment I started to understand the cruelty of this regime. So, I decided to take part in the demonstrations.”

“One year later, in 1989, during the one year anniversary of the 1988 protests, I led demonstrations. They arrested me the next day. I spent two months in an interrogation centre. They hung me up, with my hands tied and gave me electric shocks. They also dripped water on my head continuously. My friend was shot in his stomach. He died in my arms… I understood the cruelty of the dictatorship…”

“At one point, they put insects into my navel. These bit me. They left them there for one week. I was tied to a bed. I stopped breathing, from shock.”

“They kept me in Insein prison for three years. As political prisoners, we were not allowed to look up into people’s faces. We had to look down. Even under the British colonial rule, we were not treated like that. So we demonstrated.”

“Together with 200 prisoners, I was eventually moved to Thayarwaddy prison. We were all handcuffed and moved. I was at Thayarwaddy for two months. The junta always wants to show the international community that there are no political prisoners in Burma. We were sent to forced labour camps. We demonstrated against this. As a punishment, we were all put in lines of four. Thirty (criminal) prisoners were then given alcohol so they would beat the political prisoners up.”

Can you tell us something about the conditions at the camp?

“They kept us inside one room for two months. Every hour, somebody would come to beat us up. There was no proper toilet, we had to use cups. We had insects in our excrement. And lice etc. in our wounds. It was an eight feet square room and there were three persons inside there. At night, bugs from the toilet would creep out into the room. So there was always one of us awake to keep watch against them. Whenever one of us was sick, we would vomit blood. Seven of us went blind, because of the beatings they received.”

“After we demonstrated at this treatment, they let us out of this room. After two months, they allowed familiy food to be brought in. We were not allowed personal visits, though. We could not keep water in our rooms, but had to take water out of water pots. This was always very smelly water and one day, there was a rotten rat inside the pot. This was our drinking water. The political prisoners here were treated very badly.”

“In 1991, it was the hardest time. There was no ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) and there were many political prisoners. Many young people, many doctors, teachers, engineers. By arresting these young people, the junta wanted to teach people a lesson: not to get involved in politics again. But we were ready to sacrifice our lives. Even despite this. Some of us died in prison.”

Ko Soe Myint Aung was released from Thayarwaddy prison in 1992.

“After my release, I was not actively involved in politics, but still involved. In 2004 Min Ko Naing and other student leaders such as Htay Kywe and Mie Mie were released. I married the younger sister of Min Ko Naing’s friend from Bagatha. My brother in law was the spokesperson of Burma’s Student Union. He died after he was released from prison. Min Ko Naing said: ‘don’t be upset, let’s work together.’ So we worked together. I worked with Min Ko Naing, Mie Mie, Ko Htay Kywe and Su Su Nyaw.”

“In 2007, we were marching to their homes in the street. Min Ko Naing and the others got arrested again. They are still in prison now.”

What happened with Ko Soe Myint Aung in 2007?

“I hid. During the 2007 monks’ uprising, I supported them with the students and with NLD members. But I had to go into hiding. I have a wife and two children, but I could not go back home, it was not safe. I had to keep moving all the time. In 2009 I fled to Mae Sot, Thailand. I did not have any contact with my family. Now, I can contact them again, via the internet. On 29 January 2009 I arrived here in NuPho refugee camp. I now want my family to come here, too. But at the moment, it’s too dangerous for them. I want to find a safe place for us in a third country.”

Does Ko Soe Myint Aung have a message for the people?

“I would like to ask families abroad to help Burmese families. I want to see democracy in Burma. Do not support the junta. Help us in any way you can.”

How can we help?

“The international community should put more pressure on the military junta. Sanctions are not effective enough, because of leakages. People suffer a lot inside. The international community should help people. Go inside, give education, tell the junta to provide education to the people. Tell people about human rights and things like that.”

“There are many injured prisoners inside the prisons who die. Nobody cares about this. There is no ICRC to record these deaths. They do not care. Humans just die there in prison.”

“In 1988 it was against the ‘47 constitution. Now they also do not care. Now it’s against the 2008 constitution, which will prolong military rule. I will continue to fight against this 2008 constitution.”

Ko Zaw Htoo is 46 years old and was born in Pyin U Lwin. We meet just before the November 2010 elections in NoPhu refugee camp.
He runs D.U. Teashop (Diaspora Unity) in the camp.

“I left Burma for the first time in 1988, when the economic situation was bad. I worked in Thailand, Malaysia. And then had a chance to go to Japan. I lived in Tokyo, Japan for 10 years. I saved money and wanted to start my own business when I would go back home to Burma.  In 2006, I went back to Burma. A lot had changed in the country while I was away. It was very difficult for me. The standard of living had gone down and many people were very poor.”

“When the 2007 Saffron Revolution took place, I wanted to help, because I respect the monks. But it was difficult to actively help because I do not understand much about politics. I owned a truck and used this as a means of transportation for the monks. With this truck, we transported monks from their Kyaungs (monasteries) to the Schwedagon Pagoda and back after the demonstrations ended. After a while, my car number plate was written down by police and detectives. The MI was hunting for my car. I had not been driving it myself. They found my car two months later. And took it. They asked: ‘who’s the owner of this car?’ I moved out of my house. I heard police wanted to arrest me.”

“I left my house and went to another city. People asked me what had happened. I did not want to get arrested. Friends advised me to flee the country. I arranged to leave in January 2008 and went from Rangoon to Myawaddy. I crossed the river by boat, unofficially. In February 2008, I was in Mae Sot, Thailand. I met a friend and we discussed safety in Mae Sot. An NGO advised me to go to NuPho camp. This would be safer for me. I went by public transport and arrived here in March 2008. I now live in Section 16 of this refugee camp. My friends left for resettlement in the USA. I want to go, too. I want to improve my life and any other country will do..”

“After I had been here for six months, I wanted to have something to do. So I started my teashop. I managed to borrow money from friends. My teashop is called ‘D.U.: Diaspora Unity’, because so many Burmese people live abroad in so many countries. I wanted this teashop to be a gathering place in this camp, a sort of unity.”

What are Ko Zaw Htoo’s plans now?

“I am waiting for my refugee (MPO) registration. Then maybe I can go for resettlement in a third country. I have email contact with my family now so now and then.”

And what are his plans for the future?

“I want to go for resettlement, maybe. As I do not expect change inside Burma anytime soon. The elections (of November 2010) will not bring any change. In fact, the elections have already finished.. It is already clear what will happen. There is not much hope for change in the near future.”

“I want to have a stable life in a stable country. One day I want to be able to help people inside Burma. Now it’s not stable. I want a stable life. Like a tree: it grows by itself. Once it’s old enough, it has many branches and many birds can rest on it and depend on it.”

How does Ko Zaw Htoo see Burma’s future?

“I see no change soon. The military power will not change soon.”

“I am no politician. I do not understand much about politics. I do not trust the current junta, so I do not trust the elections. I do not expect any change.”

What is needed for change?

“Elections should not be led by a military junta, but by a civilian caretaker government / mediator, including Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. They should lead elections. The main problem of course, is the unfair 2008 Constitution.”

Is violence needed to bring change in Burma?

“We tried two, three times in a non-violent way, but nothing happened. I think we need violent action. The military generals should may be be assassinated. For the good of the people. The people are suffering a lot. The high-ranking generals should be taken out. I have no trust in the UN or in foreign troops. It all seems not to have helped so far. The UN are very weak: Russia and China always use their vetoes. Nothing changes..”

Will Than Shwe be reborn?

“I do not think so. Than Shwe is not a Buddhist. In Buddhism we believe it is not easy to be reborn as a human again. It depends on your good actions.”

Does he have a message for the people?

“Please put pressure on the Burmese government. We need to pressure them for democracy, change. The military government is saying they are making a change for democracy. We don’t believe it. It is all fake. We need real change and freedom. Foreign governments should pressurise the Burmese regime much more.”

How can normal people help to improve the situation in Burma?

“Most people inside Burma are poor: they cannot even let their kids go to school. Education is very important. Help children to go to school. And support NGO’s that help build schools for example. Many 10-11 year olds can not go to school, because their parents are too poor. They go to war instead..”